VA: Training Children Part 2: Effective Negative Reinforcement
Feb 24th, 2008
(23 votes, average: 3.04 out of 5)
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An important thing to consider when you’re shaping good behavior is that it works best when the person doesn’t realize you’re doing it. This is just as true whether you’re […]
Original post: Training Children Part 2: Effective Negative Reinforcement
The employee lateness thing was positive punishment, not negative reinforcement. They were late, so they were greeted with frowns (given something = positive). This lessened the behavior of showing up late, so it was a punishment.
Can we please not make this a psychology lesson? I’m already getting confused. If I shoot someone, is it positive punishment since I’ve given them a bullet? Or is it negative since I’ve taken their life?
I’m going to give you a psychology lesson anyway.
1. V is using the phrase “negative reinforcement” incorrectly. Every time she said that, she meant “punishment”.
2. negative = taking away
positive = giving
reinforcement = intended to encourage a behavior
punishment = intended to discourage a behavior
3. so yes, introducing an undesireable consequence as a result of bad behavior is “positive punishment”
4. “negative reinforcement” is taking away something undesireable, in order to encourage a behavior. here’s a parenting example: as a result of a child finishing her homework before dinner, take away something undesireable to her, like having to help clean up the kitchen after dinner. here’s a teacher example: as a result of children completing some number of math problems in class, take away problems from the homework assignment.
Aside from the incorrect use of that one phrase, I thought this was a positive article that many parents and teachers need to hear. Especially teachers! We are so afraid of being perceived as a bad guy, that we let kids talk us into changing out minds or being lenient. Then they just know they can walk all over us. My usual response to a kid or parent complaining about a consequence is “I don’t come to work every day to make a bunch of 15 year old friends.”
Even if she uses them as “layman’s terms”…
http://www.myroidtypecomics.com/otherpics/reinforce.jpg
Here is a positive reinforcement for you…
FUCK YOU!
I already provided the “psychology lesson” with the last post. V addressed in this one, and while I’m sure it bears reminding, if she wants to continue on with the common terminology screwups for the sake of the clarity of her message to laymen, I really don’t have that much of a problem. Sure, it irks me, just like when people fuck up antisocial and unsocial, but if you flip out every time it happens, you’ll just be wasting your time.
Even with the errors in terminology, her two posts have some useful info (again, up to individuals how they want to apply that info.) And that’s gotta count for something…
Right?
As a person who talks a lot of bs, I have my own speculations of these two posts. (Takes one to know one, kinda thingie…)
I agree with Sean that while she may had some mix-ups in terminology, she had quite valid points here and there.
With the candy-bar for 60 days thing my first thought was “What about Pavlov?” but I have to admit, I do not know psychology enough to say for sure will that kind of rewarding be counter-productive in a sense of conditioning. Does that kind of conditioning stick? Like the sub-conscious extending of a hand to shake someone else’s extended hand. But anyways, to my guesses:
My grand speculation is that she has thought about these things, but lacks the education in psychology (like me) and perhaps now either a) read one book about it and it opened her eyes realizing that she can now verbalize her thoughts or b) just started to write her thoughts and checked the correct (or at least close to correct) terms in Wikipedia (like me). Wiki is a great starting point and a quick double-checking database, but not an actual study archive. Great for double-checking terminology, dates, years and such. Bad for in-depth studies, especially in anything even remotely related to psychology or politics. And my guess B would also explain the way the “extinction” part was written as well…
I’m sure Derren Brown (Option C: TV) is not involved in this train of thoughts, but of course I can’t be sure.
Oh, I’m waiting excitingly for a post after she reads a book about NLP or parapsychology.
Ugh,
Nostrasami has spoken.
V, would you please stop messing around and post the photo you promised?
Tx alotz ;)
Actually, it takes a lot less than 60 days to create a new habit; it only takes 21. ;)
“Also, I’m just trying to write a short Internet guide on this crap. Not a fucking book.”
Hmm, seems like a book to me. Meh! This stuff is boring, and frankly… I find VA lacking in any real advice to offer, due to her erratic and flippant behavior towards others.
Get a child VA, and play your mind games with it, so you feel better about your fucking existence. Maybe it’s me, or perhaps there’s something in her writings that touches me, but nonetheless VA is beginning to bore me lately.
It’s intellectually lazy to use well-defined terms incorrectly. Even if you are writing for a general audience, you shouldn’t write stuff that is just plain wrong. Wikipedia knows the correct definitions of punishment and negative reinforcement. This isn’t rocket science, it’s Psych 101.
Maybe I’m the only one but I loved this post. Now if she could just do a follow up with more specifics on how to train my husband.
The kid I’ve got down - I’ve had her from day 1. How do I undo 25 years of bad mothering that fucked up my husband?
Can I just say from the viewpoint of a ‘layman’, or in other words a normal person who’s never done any psychology classes, VA’s way of putting things in that article made much more sense than what you guys just said. :)