VA: How to Train Your Children to Behave on Cue
Feb 22nd, 2008
(20 votes, average: 2.6 out of 5)
Loading ...The dictionary defines the word cue as anything that excites to action; stimulus. Taking that into consideration, it is safe to say that in the course of an average day, […]
Original post: How to Train Your Children to Behave on Cue
I found this post odd. She gets a lot of stuff about operant conditioning right (such as the importance of timing in the use of rewards and punishments) but fucks up the basic understanding of what positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, and punishment are. To help folks understand what she’s talking about, I’ll expand on it a bit.
Contrary to popular belief, Negative reinforcement is NOT punishment. In operant conditioning, there are 4 actions you can take after a behavior.
1) Positive Reinforcement
2) Negative Reinforcement
3) Positive Punishment
4) Negative Punishment
Positive and negative in this sense mean to add something or take something away. Reinforcement is an action designed to make the behavior more likely in the future. Punishment, obviously, is to decrease the likelihood of the behavior in the future.
Positive Reinforcement is what she talks about here a lot. Give a child a piece of candy after cleaning their room. You are adding something (positive) pleasant (reinforcement) in the hope the kid will be more likely to clean the room in the future.
Negative Reinforcement is not punishment. What it actually is is the removal (negative) of something unpleasant, in the hopes of increasing the behavior in the future. For example, say the kid’s already grounded for whatever reason, but they do something really good that you want to reinforce. Instead of giving them candy, you may instead choose to lift the grounding (removing something unpleasant) as a way to increase the likelihood of that behavior.
Positive Punishment is punishment where you add something unpleasant to discourage it in the future. Kid knocks down a vase while you’re right there? An example of positive punishment would be to spank them (adding something unpleasant.) Note that the word “positive” is not a judgment on whether the punishment is good or bad.
Negative Punishment is the removal of something pleasant to discourage behavior. Kid knocks over the vase, and instead of spanking them, you choose to revoke their TV privileges or ground them. In this case, you are removing something pleasant (freedom, the ability to watch their favorite show) as a way to discourage them from doing stupid shit in the future.
I hope this information will be useful in helping to get your little crotch goblins under control. It’s up to the parent to decide which combination of techniques to use, and which are most effective.
*phew* I get a little hammered sometimes.
yeah this post was like behavioral psychology on crack
And she know this why? She doesn’t have kids - sure, she’s a stepmom, but that’s not the same as raising a child.
Of course the people with the best advice on raising kids never seem to have any. Ha. Really V, on this topic - shut the fuck up. There is nothing as annoying as an ‘expert’ who has no real world experience.
If you had kids and a non-parent wrote this - you’d give them hell. You have totally lost your edge.
Stepkids and babysitting experience should count for something…
Plus, having pets/dogs…kids are basically a modified pet most of the time.
Whoever said that V doesn’t have kids? I have scoured her website from top to bottom and never once did she say she didn’t have kids. In fact, she seems purposely vague on the subject. She’s always writing about taking care of kids, but she never makes note on who those kids are exactly.
Methinks that if V did have children, the Internet would be the very last to know.
I’d rather read V talk about disciplining children when she may or may not have any idea what the fuck she’s talking about than read other mommies say that they either A) don’t have to discipline their children because they’re angels and can do no wrong or B) say they can’t discipline their children because they are fragile little flowers and a time-out will hurt their self esteem!
I work with kids all the time, and some of the scum that’s being pumped out of the modern American home is downright appalling. They’re just not disciplined. Good for you V, for saying something about it.
“For example, say a child breaks a glass vase in another room unbeknown to the parent. Upon discovery of the broken vase (three hours after it was broken) the parent decides to reprimand the child by taking away his television privileges. The parent pats himself on the back for a job well done, but in reality, the punishment did nothing to dissuade the child from breaking things in the future.”
So what should you do in such a situation? I’d say punishment is in order, even if it was an accident the child should have told you. I’ll agree that you should punish children as soon after they do the bad thing as possible, but three hours isn’t that long.
(Also posted on Violent Acres Dump)
First off, V, NO relation to your buddy Ryan (especially as it’s my pseudonym). I agree with many of your opinions, but perhaps I am not quite as extreme. I think that using rewards for good behavior, even in the cases that V describes is not necessarily beneficial over the long-term. I picked up a book several years ago “Punished by Rewards” by Alfie Cohen (he’s got a website too). It totally changed my perspective on childrearing and society in general. He has several main themes, once of which has to do with the evolution of rewards from behaviorism and BF Skinner, who experimented with animals (rats/mice and levers, pellets), not humans. My memory is a bit hazy, but I think Pavlovian conditioning is also addressed. Though their theories work well within a very limited paradigm, they do not extrapolate to humans as effectively. One of the biggest arguments against rewards is that it replaces intrinsic human motivation with extrinsic motivation, which eventually destroys motivation altogether. Anyhow, I find Cohen’s work to be very relevant to this discussion, and though this body of research may not be up your alley, you may well find it very interesting.
ps My daughter (almost 10) is generally very well-behaved, and I do not offer many overt rewards, though we may ‘celebrate’ good grades or other positive achievements. A very stern look or tone will usually stop undesirable behavior quickly. I know I got real lucky in the kid lottery, so my experience may not apply to everyone.
Robin: There is a huge difference between punishment and ‘natural consequences’. Depending on the age of the child a consequence for breaking the vase is that they help clean it up. A two year old can wipe a floor. Of course, the adult would have to make sure the glass was cleaned up and the area was safe. Even a token effort on the part of the child makes an impact. The child could hold a garbage bag while mom/dad/whoever cleans, and see how much work they have to do. If the vase was of sentimental value, the adult might show some sadness and explain that it was ‘grandmas special vase’ and there are no more just like it. If the child receives an allowance, they might have to sacrifice some of it and help pick out a new vase. A little utopian I suppose. I understand that many parents lose their cool in stressful circumstances (myself included), but nothing wrong with striving for an ideal. Okay I’ll go back to blurking now.
I was just thinking the other day about the solution to all VA’s problems — she needs a child! Seriously. I think having your own child, and just simply watching them as a stepmother are different. I think something mentally changes within a person when they have their own child, when they begin to realize that what they say and do will have a direct impact on such a small person… that will mold them into a responsible adult in society one day.
VA you need a child, desperately. Forget all your lists of charities, errands, and hobbies to keep you occupied untily you burn out — become a fulltime parent and you’ll see if what you think and say on your blog holds true. If you want to change society, and show you can make it better, then educate your child with your knowledge of what is right and wrong — since your own mother painfully scarred you for life.
@7 Cassie
If I remember correctly, there is at least one article in which V states that she has no children, and her stepchild plays with the neighbor kids.
@4 Lola
@5 anon
How about instead of telling her she’s wrong because she has no children, you give some sort of anecdote about how you’ve tried this with your children and they all grew up to be car theives and dope dealers because of fetal alchohol syndrome?
@V
A car bursting into flames is way worse of a punishment than a parking ticket, however, I think the self absorbed assholes (SAAs) have two reasons to park illegally:
1) I don’t know where you live, but the meter maids aren’t perfect. Therefore, they don’t catch everybody every time, so there’s a chance they can get away with it.
2) It’s sort of redundant to say rich, self absorbed assholes. They have lots of money they don’t mind spending on completely useless crap. My friends’ rich parents don’t think twice about dropping $2k on a new computer when their current one gets trashed with spyware, while knowing full well that the fix is less than $100. That sort of money just doesn’t register as anything meaningful.
VA, ya big faker! I know who you are.
You know this behavioral training crap why? Because you have a kid with autism that’s why. PDD/autism same thing. In fact, you have more than one kid with special needs.
Did social services come to your house and teach you this or did you actually read a book about something other than your own condition?
Listen people, VA started this site with her posts about the mommy-bloggers that she was so angry with for exploiting their kids. She’d have to be a mother herself to be that angry. That was my first clue.
VA knows enough to hide the fact that she has kids herself because she doesn’t want them to be a target. She knows that they are her “soft spot”. Also, she knows enough to have this site which she hopes looks like it’s owned by someone else so that people can say whatever and she doesn’t have to be responsible for their comments. At least she’s smarter than a lot of anonymous bloggers but she’s like most attention whores - like serial killers, they all really want credit for their work and stop trying to hide their identity so much.
Exactly, not anonymous. To me, it’s painfully obvious that V has children. I mean, seriously! Just read her posts! Where the hell are all these children coming from if they’re not hers? In ‘Lies and mediocrity’ she even said she lies about who the kids are in her life to protect their identity! And why would she rant and rave about mommybloggers exploiting their children on their websites so much just to turn around and do it to her own kid?
I never doubted for one second that VA has children.
But gee, VA readers sure are easy to fool!
I think it’s irrelevant whether V has children or not - she’s looked after them, and claiming that only people who have their own children know how to look after childrem is a spurious claim, used in a defensive manner by parents who are ashamed of the way their children behave.
Also, who was it who suggested V “needs” children - that’s utterly ridiculous - no one needs children, and suggesting that V needs children in order to make her life worthwhile is not only offensive to every intelligent, useful and interesting (in their own right) person in the world, it goes directly against things she’s said in previous posts. Sigh.
I have nothing against the kids who are already in the world, but this attitude that all women should have children, that people “need” children, is ridiculous. Ever heard of overpopulisation? The world does not need any more kids right now!
“you are a passionate and eloquent [writer].” And, I applaud you for that… But!
Does it really matter if V has kids or not? Personally, I could care less about whether or not she has kids. You’re an idiot if you take someone’s advice verbatim just because you like her blog. BUT you are ignorant if you disregard an opinion purely based on a perceived lack of experience. I don’t have kids (two adult step-kids don’t count as kids) but I nevertheless found this entry (i.e. V’s opinion) interesting. When it comes to raising kids (and every other experience in life), every bastard has their opinion. Take what you need and move on, I say.
Rewards/punishments are endlessly debatable, but they’re not really relevant. If you have to use those methods as a primary dicipline tool, you’re already behind. Children who behave well either have easygoing personalities (to which one can credit genes but not technique) or they are motivated to behave well because they respect and want to please their parents, they’ve developed good habit, and they know exactly what is expected of them.
Parents who are inconsistent, unpredictable, or innattentive will not get their children’ respect nor their good behavior, no matter what rewards or punishment they use. A kid who respects his parent is thinking “I can’t do that, Mom would be so disappointed,” not “If I do this, mom is going to scream and ground me.” Fear of punishment is a poor motivator.
Smacking (or grounding) a kid for knocking over a lamp is not discipline if you ignored her running aound the room for twenty minutes first. That child knows rambunctiousness is acceptable and is not going to understand why they’re catching it for breaking the lamp. This leads to confusion, resentment, and further poor behavior. *
If they aren’t cleaning their room, you don’t bribe them, you go in there and clean it with them until they (by example) develop the habits they need to do it themselves, and they know it is expected of them. That it’s a mess in the first place says they haven’t got good habits and that the expectation of cleanliness is not consistent, either. Kids are mimics- if they see you doing it, they want to do it- so encourage them.
What’s really sad is, children WANT to be good. They thrive when they know what is expected of them and when they are given the tools to achieve it successfully and consistently, and the rewards are consistent and approppriate (praise and positive attention). If you observe people with well behaved children, you’ll see that they pay close attention to them, and it’s unlikely punishment is routine for them.
Unfortunately, many of us are too overwhelmed by the mistakes we’ve already made, or worse, to defensive to do anything about it. The good news is, if you aren’t completely disfunctional, it only takes a few weeks to fix even the worst problems, and it works on stepkids and neighbor kids, too.
18 Mother of Four 1/2 —- great, great post. What you said is spot-on.
“Fear of punishment is a poor motivator.” –SO fucking true.